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Personanongrata
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 Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 4:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Maybe part of the problem is that people tend to envision God as a separate entity.... Myself, I don't think that is the case. |
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atonewithnothing
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| Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 1:51 am Post subject: |
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| If omnipresence is anywhere in one's definition of God then it follows that nothing is separate from God. |
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screamzero
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| Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 4:34 am Post subject: |
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| humphreys wrote: |
| fortwynt wrote: |
| atonewithnothing wrote: |
Let's take another example. The Greeks thought atoms were indivisible and now we're talking about quarks and strings.
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Well, sure, but we are talking apples and apples here....the natural progression of scientific proof would logically move from belief in atom as the smallest unit to greater ability to "see" (loosely used) atoms, and the ability to smash and break them apart and postulate that there must be smaller units....it wasn't that the greeks were archaic and fickle, with a mythology built around the indivisible atom...it was simply a matter of the evolution of scientific realization......to me that is a much different thing from religious mythology (or "belief" in a god).....quarks and strings, while based on sound scientific theory, are certainly no more "real" at this point than the veritable man in the moon....they are merely theories to explain certain behaviors of other things, no?
It is my belief that any concept of God is going to fail if an attempt is made to "prove" God exists by any scientific reasoning. A science minded person may say "but all things are science, if God exists, God must be a part of this nature"....therefore theorectically God should be able to be (with the right instrument) measured in some way.....however, I think that this concept falls short because it disregards the possibility that there is an existence that lives purely in the "energetic" or "spiritual" rather that is wholly seperate from the physical maniffestation of reality, unmeasurable or even undefine-able from any type of standpoint we may arrive at through science. |
If the existence of God cannot be "proved" scientifically, then it cannot be "proved" at all. That's why the religious must have faith, and also why you don't have a leg to stand on in any rational debate. |
...and of his non-existence being proved? I.E. His existence being disproved......and so by the same fallacious reasoning would take a bit of faith to "know" He does not exist....seems both sides of the argument are "afflicted" w/ faith. Sounds like fellatio to me. Rational is the logic to conclude Love exists, then act upon it. Such a thing is hard to disprove when the results are painfully obvious..."spin" science could do it: "It's all chemical...that accidentally or randomly appeared."... Doesn't prove a G-d..does it? ...to "illogical', Love, but who would argue w/ the results? However..this does not disprove Love...er G-d. |
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fortwynt
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| Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 11:30 am Post subject: |
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| atonewithnothing wrote: |
| If omnipresence is anywhere in one's definition of God then it follows that nothing is separate from God. |
True, in a sense....although I believe there is a difference still, an inseparable separateness, if you will....this, to me is the ultimate mystery of God, how God can be in all and through all and yet can be a distinct individual being as well. I believe all life and creation period are physical manifestations of the kinetic energies of God, but do I think all things "are God"? no.
Think of it this way....all concepts begin first in the mind, as potential energy (if you will)....infinite even...but once that thought is acted upon, movement is made in the physical, potential is transformed into kinetic, and that thought begins to take shape in the physical, and loses that "infinite" quality as it must by taking a definite shape in the physical, eliminating the infinite potential and becoming kinetic/finite, as manifested in a form.
I can imagine how i want my house to look, plan it out in my head, all the details, color of the walls, size of the rooms, shape of the basic structure, etc etc...at this point there is no difference between that thought and "me"...but then I will buy or acquire materials, I will buy nails and a hammer, I will begin to build that "thought", and in the end we will have an object that certainly EXISTED beforehand, but has now become manifest in the physical.....the house is not "me", but it certainly bears the essence of my energies. |
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Personanongrata
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| Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 2:07 am Post subject: |
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How does infinity lose the quality of being infinite?  |
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atonewithnothing
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| Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 2:48 am Post subject: |
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Personanongrata
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| Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 3:00 am Post subject: |
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| atonewithnothing wrote: |
| Can God cease being God? |
You mean like, intentionally restricting Himself from full omniscience, and such? |
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atonewithnothing
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| Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 8:21 am Post subject: |
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| Personanongrata wrote: |
| atonewithnothing wrote: |
| Can God cease being God? |
You mean like, intentionally restricting Himself from full omniscience, and such? |
It just seemed to be a paraphrase or different way to ask the question you asked.
Omnipotence tends to lead to paradoxes quite swiftly, unlike omnipresence. So does combining free will with omniscience. |
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fortwynt
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| Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 9:11 am Post subject: |
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| atonewithnothing wrote: |
| Personanongrata wrote: |
| atonewithnothing wrote: |
| Can God cease being God? |
You mean like, intentionally restricting Himself from full omniscience, and such? |
It just seemed to be a paraphrase or different way to ask the question you asked.
Omnipotence tends to lead to paradoxes quite swiftly, unlike omnipresence. So does combining free will with omniscience. |
I like to believe God is the perfect knowledge of pure cause and effect, insomuch as Gods "omniscience" is concerned. It is not that God predicts (or CAN predict) what we will do before we do it, in fact free will negates this very concept, but what God does know is the end result of our choices. The chain reaction from every choice and move we make...of course we are free to change what we want to do, but then God will see the end result of THAT choice as well. |
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SRO
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| Posted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 7:51 am Post subject: |
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| Concensous of numbrs alone, of 4-5 billion believers, outweighs one atheists opinion. Almost as accurate as a DNA test |
No, actually that is completely different. Entirely. When everyone in the world was of the same opinion that we could not fly it did not make it so. When everyone thought that the world was flat, it did not make it so.
Whereas DNA doesn't lie. |
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SRO
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| Posted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 7:59 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Well, sure, but we are talking apples and apples here....the natural progression of scientific proof would logically move from belief in atom as the smallest unit to greater ability to "see" (loosely used) atoms, and the ability to smash and break them apart and postulate that there must be smaller units....it wasn't that the greeks were archaic and fickle, with a mythology built around the indivisible atom...it was simply a matter of the evolution of scientific realization |
Before that, the Greeks had assumed that there were four elements, and that all matter consisted of combinations of those four. The four being: Earth, Fire, Water, Air. Not even close. They all thought they had it down, and they where all wrong. It has happened before, if for whatever reason someone thinks we have outgrown out placement of irrational beliefs you are sorely mistaken. Greeney. No amount of people believing is proof, under any circumstances. So since there are more Muslims than there are Christians, does that mean that Christians are all wrong and the true religion is Islam? No, of course not! Logic that only fits one situation but not a parallel situation is not a rational logic. |
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Questioner101
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| Posted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 10:04 am Post subject: |
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| If "god" is all that there is....the total enchilada....(including humans) then every thought you think is his/hers, every move you make is done by them, every single bit of you is them....interesting....you are merely the higher/lower vibration of god. |
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screamzero
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| Posted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 2:15 pm Post subject: |
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event_horizon
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| Posted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 4:55 am Post subject: |
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I've said this here several times in the past:
Everything has an origin. If a conscious/intelligent being created this universe, then it has an origin. If another conscious/intelligent being created that being, then it too has an origin...and on and on and on until you reach a paradox -- a paradox which ultimately concludes that somewhere, somehow, something came into existence through non-intelligence, and if that can happen, then it's completely logical to think that Earthlings (and the universe) could have come into existence through non-intelligence.
Just like the writer of the essay says (in fewer words):
If everything must have been created, then god must have been created as well. If god is not created, then everything mustn't have a creator, so why should life or cosmos have one?
It blew me away when I read that, because that was the first time I saw someone else think/write that thought. It almost seemed like I was the only one to contemplate such a thing. It's a really good point. |
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horizon
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Personanongrata
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| Posted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 5:37 am Post subject: |
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If God is an infinite being, having infinite attributes & nature, then it is thoroughly impossible to "disprove" the existence of such a being isn't it?
Such a being will always be beyond our ability to encapsulate within any system we devise. |
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_________________
__________________________________________
"The obstacle is the path." -- Zen Proverb.
"**ck it, we'll do it live." -- Bill O'Reilly.
"...................................." -- Harpo Marx. |
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